I have been mulling "Hunters in the Dark" over and over in my head, we learn some important info, but yet, we are still left hanging on so much...
First, the best line of the episode... Roland, " I thought it took God seven days to make the world." Wayne, "He rested on the seventh. I always thought he should've put the extra day in instead of half-assing it." I almost fell over when I heard him say this... absolute gold.
Second, we had another glorious exchange between Roland and Wayne in their elder years. The chemistry and timing between the two actors... watching Dorff (Roland) when he realizes Ali (Wayne) has lost his way and forgotten the moment was sublime. The response was both subtle and strong. They are killing it, pure and simple.
My thoughts are all over the place at this point, so I think the best route is to list what we (now) do know.
We definately know Tom was not involved. Poor man had no idea what was going on in his own house.
I was afraid they would go after him after hearing Julie's phone call because they would misinterpret it, and they did. Wayne and Roland were forced to push Tom. I honestly don't think they would have done that on their own, but as Roland said, better them than the other crew.
Roland befriended Tom, he had the most sympathy for him and he stays true to this dispite everyone else turning on him. It was apparent that Tom thought of Roland as a friend as well, his disbelief that Roland even considered him involved in what happened to the children was palatable.
This is a conspiracy... Dan continually used the term "they" (and Nic P. in the after show confirmed this). Right now we know Hoyt (and family?), James and Lucy - who I think is neck deep in this - are involved. There are more, we just don't know who yet and the motive. First thing that comes to mind is a pedophile ring, Amelia's interview with the young girl under the nun's care leaves us with that thought, but I don't think that is it. We still haven't been given enough information as to motive yet.
The peep hole... it has a purpose, just not the one we thought. Why were Tom and Julie secretly passing notes through the wall - this was not a brother and sister harmlessly talking to each other after lights out - the notes themselves, seemingly from Will to Julie, are important and tell us something was going on prior to Will's murder and Julie's disappearance.
Wayne's son is having an affair with Elisa.
Tom was dealing with his own issues. How this fits in to the story, if at all, we as yet don't know.
I agree Appara2, it was close, but Tom doen't kill Dan. It was a good theory though and they did take us to the brink with it. But, someone does, as they did Lucy. Was it James and then he had to be eliminated? 'Cause they are all gone. We are left in the end with Tom in the pink room with James right behind him. I am imagining that this is the end of Tom, how he comes out alive after finding the room, I don't know.
I am out of thoughts for the moment regarding what we do know. I probably should say that my thoughts on Tom not being involved in his son's death and Julie's disappearance is my opinion, not a fact. We saw that man break after being accused and I think he is squarely out of the picture in the conspiracy.
Hallelujah, finally they are paying attention to the ghosts at Halloween! About time, took them long enough. The brown car still has not been investigated and the one eyed man shows up out of the blue. There is a lot that needs to be wrapped up with two episodes left to go.
Oh and I forgot to mention, we still do not know who Julie's father is. Uncle Dan's "milestone" comment was telling, but that does not mean it is him.
I too LOVED the seventh day!! Those two are so great at setting up the little bits of comedy!
Tom. That interrogation scene. To be accused of being involved in the crime by a man he considered his friend? When that sunk in and his reaction? I have no words. 5 years of sobriety pffft! over!
Also, that is why I don't think he was the one to end Cousin Dan...he got the information that he was seeking, and the reveal that Lucy left town with a large amount of cash!
As soon as you see that hand, and the cigarette smoke spiraling up in front of the security monitors you know it isn't going to end well for Tom.
Amelia's run-in with the one-eyed man left me with the impression that he cared about the kids and definitely knew them both. He just looked disgusted with the way Amelia was seeking fame/fortune from their death/disappearance by planning a new book. I wonder if her digging into the case for her new book may have been the death of her?
Kindt has alarm bells going off in my head! He wanted Junkyard charged and the case closed. Now he comes out with the theory that Tom and Junkyard planned this together, so charge Tom and case closed. I still believe that he was the man Julie referred to in the phone call.
Does Roland blame Wayne for the death of Tom, causing the rift. Possibly. Do Roland and Wayne split the $7000 and do away with Cousin Dan? Hmmm! Seems like Roland had a pretty nice place out there in the woods. :D
Good Morning, Appara2!
"Amelia's run-in with the one-eyed man left me with the impression that he cared about the kids and definitely knew them both. He just looked disgusted with the way Amelia was seeking fame/fortune from their death/disappearance by planning a new book."
I felt the same way, his concern seemed to be the children. He spoke as if he knew them intimately, like he was close to them in some way. After all this time though, the only thing we know about him is that he exists, beyond that, we have no inkling as to his role (if any) in what happened to Will and Julie.
I am thinking back to the first scenes in the story... we have Will and Julie riding away from home, going somewhere that they do not want their father to know as Will lies and says they are going to see their friend's new puppy. At that time they seemed light hearted as they ride along, waving to their friend and the people they saw as they go by. There was no trepidation.
We assumed that they were going to meet someone because how else would anyone, other than themselves, know where they were. They could have been followed, but no one along their path said they saw anyone else that day.
The only other things we do know is that (1) Freddy took the bike from Will and (2) Freddy said that he was looking for his sister at the time. Somehow the children got separated, Will tries to find her, he winds up dead and Julie is taken. Julie does not know her brother dies that day as we come to find out later. Beyond this, I can't think of anything else that we actually know about that day.
Yes, something was going on with those kids, were they planning on running away that evening?
Now that we know that the peephole between the rooms was not a peephole, it raises the question of which kid was the protector of the other? I would automatically assume that Julie, being younger and female would be the one that needed protecting. But, it has also been revealed that Tom was trying to cure himself of homosexuality. Could Tom have been protecting his secret, putting Will in harms way? Did someone (or 2 someones) offer to help the children by taking them both to a safe space?
btw...I thought the loner farmer had seen 2 people in a fancy sedan on that day?
"I thought the loner farmer had seen 2 people in a fancy sedan on that day"
I wanted to hear this one more time... to date, no one has ever checked up on this. I have E3 On-Demand as I write this. FYI, Roland said nobody (officially) had interviewed the farmer (to Wayne) as they were walking up to his house, yet he tells Roland that a white guy in a suit came the next day, showed him a badge, asking questions. (Q. Was this James?)
He then tells W&R he had seen the kids two or three times. They had come down the road and in to the woods.
Roland, "You see anybody else?"
"Yea, I seen a car out here a couple of times. Nice one. Brown... man and woman. But it wasn't the same day... man was black, woman white." (In my comments above I got this switched around In error.)
Big Red Flag... Wayne and Roland were interviewing the boy with the puppy (Ronnie Boyle) asking about the supposed play date. As we know there wasn't one; Ronnie just told Will that he could come over to see his new puppy sometime. He tells W&R that he sees Will at school, but they didn't play together much, which his father confirms. W&R then talks to Tom and Lucy and asks (again) how often Will played with Ronnie. Tom says three or four times a week. They were best friends. Wayne asks Tom if he ever saw the kids together, Tom replies, "I guess not" and says they always went to Ronnie's house. Wayne finally tells Tom that it seems they never played together.
So where where were they and what where they doing away from home three or four times a week?
Leads us to the fact that something had been going on for quite sometime and that Will and Julie chose to keep it a secret. If they were meeting someone, that relationship was on-going, had become entrenched (3 to 4 times a week) and their father was unaware. Also of note, Lucy said nothing during the whole conversation. Nothing.
Later in the episode Elisa grills Wayne about the fact that a number of people had mentioned seeing the fancy (up scale) brown car and the black man/white woman in the area... And, more importantly, specifically near where Will was found (Devil's Den) on the day of the murder and that this information was never followed up on by the police.
The car and these people have to be a major focus of the next episode as it seems like it was intentionally left out of the story (and investigation) up to this point to keep us sidetracked.
That and Tom's plight. Given what we know after the ending of this episode, it looks like we will see the end of Tom by James' hands in the next. Well, I am not certain of that the more I think about it.
Nic P. got me with the ending of the episode where I thought Roland (the hero ;)) was the first to enter Woodward's house to try to stop him. Remember, I thought that is how he injured his leg in the explosion, etc. The next episode opens up and we find out that it is Wayne who goes inside and confronts Woodward. Roland never went in the house. I thought he did, it looked like he was going in, but that was not the case. Woodward made sure Wayne would be the one.
I am not going to get burned once again! ..... We are thinking that James is coming up behind Tom and that he is going to kill him. He may try to calm Tom down, talk to him, but in the end we expect he will permanently silence him. Yet, if Tom has his gun on him (which he probably does) he could turn it on James and shoot him first. All it would take is a moments hesitation from James, in the state Tom is in, I could see it happen. Then guess who helps him get rid of the body.... yes, our dynamic duo. That's the "thing" they don't want to come out.
Far fetched? Yea, but my point is that I am not going in to the next episode with blinders on. You can't trust that Nic P., he is sneaky. :) :)
Yes, I remember the 'badge in a suit' beating them to interview the old farmer. Which makes me think not Officer James, but somebody higher up the food chain, perhaps Alan Jones? He has an interest in the outcome of this case...
It is kinda sad that when questioned about the kids Tom has the answers, although not the right answers. I think it's pretty obvious that he was operating as a single parent.
You could be right about Tom surviving this night. It doesn't seem to have come up anywhere, so far as I remember, that anyone was concerned about Tom being a missing person or a murder victim?
just dropping this here...
Cousin Dan was the man in the shadow...
Happy Valentines Day, Appara2!
Cousin Dan was the man in the shadow...
Oh, how interesting.
Happy Valentines Day to you too my friend!
I totally forgot that today was the one day of the year that I can eat a whole box of chocolates without feeling at all guilty :D
Good morning! It's Sunday and tonite a few more clues and herrings will be presented on the crime(s) :D
I admit to reading the intro for this 7th episode, and going by the phrasing that was used I have to say that what I thought I knew isn't what I thought it was. again.
Rebecca has been lurking in the corners of my mind this week too. Perhaps the answer to her absense will be revealed tonite!
See you after the show!
Appara2, I saw a preview trailer last night and it had Wayne saying that "everyone is lying"... and it showed Tom, Lucy and various players (I even think Freddy was included). I have a feeling that the next two episodes are going to be quite a ride.
what I thought I knew isn't what I thought it was. again.
Yep, at this point the only thing we can be sure about is the room is pink! :) And, that is only because we saw a wall... beyond that, we know very little about what happened that day, why it happened and who was involved. Might as well throw anything we think we know right out the window ' cause, I agree, it is not what we thought it was.
I had a very nice long weekend, fireworks last night -almost in my back yard - and a relaxing day visiting with my girlfriend (who had the day off work) today.
Oh My!! The pace has really picked up, the end is near!
Those two have the love (and the chemistry) - from the upbeat "THIS is how we do right by Tom. You can stop saying that now, I'm NOT simple" and "Oh great! like we don't see each other enough during the week" to the heartwrenching "No man, just look at me" and "I want you to know I'm thinking it" --- I love this season!!
You could just about see Wayne losing focus during the interview with the housekeeper, but he did perk up when the white-eyed man came up in the conversation, last name June? And Julie was July? hmmm
Rebecca off for college, and at that time they both looked quite happy? No Amelia along for the ride, so I wonder if she has already passed away?
I really don't think it was a case of children sold, I am leaning toward child replaced....
that's it from me for now :D Can't wait to see another point of view!!
Long weekend for me as well Appara2, it was quiet and relaxing. What fun to have fireworks so close! I was not a fan as a child, but so look forward to them now as an adult. The bigger, the better for me!
Stephen Dorff is making this series for me, I don't think I would be enjoying it half as much without him. He is the breakout star in my eyes. I would imagine that Ali would have been the supposed run- away, can't fault his acting which has been spot on, but Dorff is killing it, he shines everytime he comes on screen. I am justing loving him as Roland.
This was a strong episode, I thought it was very well done. Of course more gratuitous violence which I found unnecessary... and a very foolish move on Wayne's and Roland's part. What made them think that beating James half to death was going to help in the end. This was not some little known pedophile they pulled off the street, James worked for Hoyt! No way this was ever going to end well, no matter what they did. From the very beginning they had to know they were going to have to kill him, they couldn't have let him walk away.
I blame Wayne for talking Roland in to it. Yes, he apologized to Roland later in life, little good it did then because that was a decision that would haunt them for the rest of their lives (as we see Wayne get in to Hoyt's car). That action changed his life going forward. The big question is how did Hoyt find out... were they followed or was it Roland. There aren't too many other choices, Amelia did not have enough information from what she saw to put the story together.
We soon will find out what Wayne had to do to quiet Hoyt. Obviously he did, but at what cost.
I have come to the conclusion watching the pair of them through this investigation that they are not the smartest of detectives... yes, they have their talents, but there is nothing outstanding about their investigatory skills. Truthfully, Amelia is the better detective... think about it, all the pertinent information we know came from her. She is actually investigating, they are jumping from one premise to another.
Their main role is attempting to keep the investigation honest when they are surrounded by people who are doing the exact opposite. They are knee deep in keeping off the hounds, first with Woodward, second with Tom. Amelia is playing the role of the third detective looking for clues and information. There is a synergy there, yet she is getting little credit for her part. Maybe Wayne should have read her book earlier!
Much of the story turned out as we thought... well, before we started second guessing ourselves. This franchise does that, it makes you question everything you think and know. That is the uniqueness of it, and in a large part, the fun of it.
I agree with you Appara2, I also think this is a case of a child replaced and how the sordid details of this action destroyed the lives it touched.
Amelia still bothers me, she is too involved!!
with Security James untimely death and then tossed into a shallow grave,
'90s Hoyt blackmailed Wayne (his career, partner and/or family) into shutting down the investigation, why would Wayne then have gone and told Amelia the details? It came out early in the season that She Knew about the forest....
Also, I'm curious who is driving the car that those two bowlegged old men managed to get a photo of?? I laughed out loud when they turned and walked off into the sunset :D
"It came out early in the season that She Knew about the forest..."
Appara2, I don't recall this scene, do you remember when/what episode it was in? I'll rewatch it.
Based on what we saw last episode I assumed (without recalling the scene) that Wayne would tell Amelia some of what happened with James and subsequently his conversation with Hoyt. One, he did tell her he would explain, I do feel he would be true to his word; and two, he will need to give her some justification for the choices he makes moving forward with his career.
We have been wondering what was the cause of the halt to Wayne's carreer. Up to now we haven't had a solid clue. I think whatever is said by Hoyt - and we don't know what he knows yet of the events of that evening (and I don't believe that Roland told him anything) - I think it is enough to make Wayne concerned for his family. (More about this to follow).
To my mind, that action by Wayne was a defining moment in his life. It is also "the thing" that fractured Wayne's relationship with Roland. Roland really did not want to interrogate Harris James in the manner they did in the first place... and then because of it, he is the one that kills him.
James was a horrible person, he killed Tom and probably killed Lucy and Dan, so no tears for him. We can call it vigilante justice. But... Roland did not want to be in that position, he let Wayne talk him in to it, it was not his plan. I can certainly understand lingering resentment towards Wayne and how the relationship fell apart because of it.
Remember when Wayne was talking to his son and told him that having his children made him a fearful person, before them nothing made him afraid. That statement (my paraphrase of it) stood out to me, it was a little nugget of insight to something yet to come, but I did not know what. Now, I think I do.
Wayne was not a fearful man before his children came in to his life, fear was just not part of his DNA. The man was in the Vietnam jungle for days, weeks, alone tracking God knows what. Talk about a lack of fear, 99.9% of us wouldn't have lasted a day (me, about five minutes). I don't think that anything Hoyt would say would makes him fearful for himself, but I do think he would become fearful for his family if he felt they were threatened.
That, and only that, would make him pull back. He was looking for the truth in this investigation and willing to do what he needed to do to get it. For all we know he may have gotten some of it from Hoyt on that fatefull day which we have not been privy to up to now because he has forgotten it. Wouldn't that be a killer, if all this time somewhere in the recesses of his mind he knew what had happened to Julie and Will and just doesn't remember. We will find out soon enough.
Amelia was talking about writing a sequel to her book about the crime. She went on to write six more books but decided not to pursue a follow-up to her first book. I don't remember the timeline of when she decided this. Was it before the Harris James incident or after? She and Wayne both dropped the investigation at some point, I am not sure if it was in the same timeframe. It is hard to keep up with the back and forth.
I went back and found the bit with Amelia and reference to the woods, it was Ep03. Old Wayne is sitting alone, talking to himself when Amelia appears behind him. He has a short conversation with her, she tells him that he did lose Becca, but NOT how he thought, and then she says he is worried, what they will find in the woods. That reveal came from inside Wayne's mind. So, I misremember too! LOL. You are correct! It is only Wayne and Roland that know about the woods...and maybe Hoyt.
Also, another oddity in the timeline that I picked up on while re-cruising the episodes. Will. According to the teens,he was alive, alone, and looking for his sister when they talked to him. They took his bike. If Julie was taken, leaving him alive and on his bike, why did Julie say he was resting? Odd.
I think it is Wayne talking to Eliza where we find out there was to be no second book? So it could have been right after the James incident...
This just in!!
I was rewatching the barn scene, if you look closely Roland hits James in the arm/side, Wayne shoots him centre chest. I think that Roland was the one that made the decision to bury the crime, rather than come clean, more to protect his partner than to protect himself. They would have both been in deep trouble, but it would have been Wayne that would be charged with murder?
I also wonder about the scene with Wayne burning his clothes..he definitely felt someone watching him from behind the gate...perhaps one of Hoyts people which might be why Hoyt called the Hayes house and not Roland...
Good catch Appara2!! So Wayne actually killed James! This puts him in the thick of it. Murder it would be as the shot to his chest most likely was the one that killed him. Wayne would have rotted in jail over it. The only person who would have come to his defense would have been Roland, and Roland did not have the wherewithal to stop that avalanche. Hoyt would have been so happy to get him out of his way... Wayne would never have seen the light of day again.